Including the circuit in removable clip?

[Emdiesse]

Would it be possible to include the circuit inside the guns clip so that the clip can be removed and used with other guns of the same clip size?

Has anyone ever done this? was it successful?

This is a question i thought i would ask :D

[Ozzy]

The TFS system seems to make use of such. All their taggers are M16 replicas and players are probably handed a clip?

http://www.tfstag.com/index.html

[Emdiesse]

If i did that because it would save me time and money :D even though most components cheap, would it be possible to configure range by varying the power output?

Because i think it would be good to put it in a mag and then i can use it on multiple guns all of different ranges, etc. Or is this a bad idea?

[Ozzy]

The range of an usual tag gun, putting sensors aside, is mostly a function of the transmitter LED and the lens. The current through the LED (usually limited with a single resistor) will define range; for twice the range you need approx. 4 times the current - LEDs are not linear though and this can vary. The size of the lens and the focal length affect the range as well. The longer the focal length, the less the beam will spread due to parallax error. The larger the lens, the more light will be directed.

This, and other topics have had plenty of discussion beforehand - browse through the archives, they're a good source on information and useful background for the current debates :)

Oh - and welcome aboard, Emdiesse. I'm also glad that this forum hasn't become "mainstream" in the sense of verbal abuse and faux elitism, at least...

[Colin]

I've always thought of a clip idea, where the clips actually stored information about how many rounds were left in them. So when a clip ran out of rounds, you would have to pull it out and stick another clip in there that still had some rounds left. Would make it full milsim where you would actually have to carry a number of clips with you and would have to replace clips as you exhausted them. Also players can pick if they want to carry more or less clips...

[Rommel]

That could run on a token passing system like an electronic purse.

[milestag]

Yes, it can be done. The electronic part is easy enough and very inexpensive if you just use EEPROM memory chips. About $0.25 each for the chip. The gun's processor then communicates to the clip through standard I2C protocol. Clips can be "refilled" at a central ammo station. The hard part is finding a reliable and rugged connector for the clip/gun connection. It has to be fast to connect/disconnect and stand up to thousands of insertions, dirt, moisture, etc. And it will have to be easy to make the clips since you'll need alot of them.

[Rommel]

What about a connector like those on lan cable and telephones. You could build the female part of the connector into the mag, and the male part into a base (reload) station. And the clips on the conector would have to be removed.

[Dangerous]

What about two 3.5mm stereo leads? A total of 6 lines is enough for vcc (power), clock, return (earth), direction (read or write) and data. You could even have a CS (Chip select) in there if the gun had an external EEPROM also. That's what I would do.

[Rommel]

Wouldn't the leads be high resistance?

[Builty]

I2C serial eeproms are addressed via software, so you would need +5v, 0v, SCL and SDA lines only. The do have a hardware address to configure but in 99% of cases these are hard wired (its to allow up to 8 eeproms on the same bus, 3 bit address code)

I agree the hard part is not the electronics but the mechanical connection. Maybe you could buy a second hard old nintendo catridge game system, and use game cartridges as the ammo clip and raid the connector for the gun? Wouldn't be too good for dirt resistance though.
I tend to think that operators wouldn't like this kind of thing though as they would get lost/damaged easily.

[Rommel]

Atari game cartridges have a dust cover over the connector. Is that the same with nintendo cartridges?

[Colin]

I tend to think that operators wouldn't like this kind of thing though as they would get lost/damaged easily.

That and the connector issue are two reasons why I never looked further into it. But hey, one day, one day...

Would look good for a lasertag TV show I reakon, they cameras could film people changing clips rather than just pushing a small button...

[Ozzy]

Could I throw a suggestion about using pickup coils for data transfer? If communication through the operating voltage becomes tough to implement, you could have 2 coils with one to supply the power and the second to handle serial data.

[Rommel]

What is a pickup coil?

[Ozzy]

It works on the principle of a transformer. You can have two separate coils placed close to each other and induce a voltage on the other through magnetic flux. This principle is used for data buttons/stickers, charging rechargeable electric toothbrushes etc.

It requires no RF components to function and works through plastic. The clip could be completely sealed once it's been built.

Earlier I proposed a system like this working with the player's glove and the gun he's holding for a "wireless" link between player's sensor and the gun, enabling players to swap guns mid-game.

[Emdiesse]

That would be cool Ozzy :D

I think that havig a cable running from the gun to the sensors would get in the way! and maybe get causght on things.

And as for clips using this method, sounds great!

[Dangerous]

It's a coil of wire used to pickup a signal generated by a device in close proximity to it.

There are some car alarms that have them on the windscreen, and you have a little transponder unit that you place against the glass, the alarm picks up the correct signal from the transponder, and lets you into your car.

The cool thing about them is that the transponder unit is powered by the signal generated through the coil. The distance is really short, usually in the centimetre range.

[Dangerous]

Emdiesse, as I said, it's really short range, so from gun to player is no-go.

Unless you of course had a coil that weighed in at around 30kg's or so.. that would probably go the distance, but then again, carrying around the 2 or 3 car batteries to power it would suck.

[Ozzy]

The gun-to-player interface would work by two gloves or just bands around your palm, wired up your arm. It's easier to implement with a full sensor harness like TFS-tag uses.

[fukkenuziman]

Would it be necessary to have the clip be part of the circuit? Steradian has a realistic reload that utilizes the removing and replacing of a real clip, but the clip doesn't house any elctronics. They incorporated a switch where the clip latches to the weapon and upon replacing the magazine...the gun reloads. Keeping the the number of reloads low at the start would still make it vital to find an ammo dump, but you wouldn't need to physically carry around multiple magazines. This would just be another thing that could be lost on the battlefield as Builty mentioned.

I personally like Steradian's approach as I have used their Nighthawk and a new prototype that they are working on, and both have removable magazines to initiate the reload cycle. I

[Dangerous]

fukkenuziman,

Yer, thats the easy way to do things. Would work just fine. You could even tie a short length of wire to the mag so that if it was dropped, it wouldn't drop more than an inch or so from the gun.

But, wouldn't it be great that you could have say, armour peircing rounds at one ammo dump, dum dums at another, and normal steel jackets at another. Go around, collect what you could carry, be greedy if you want, but you still have to carry them, and use the appropriate round at the appropriate time.

[fukkenuziman]

Yeah, that could be cool and I can see the advantage of having a "smart" clip. It would open up some new avenues of gameplay.

So, the clip would let the gun know that it had a more lethal round and would do more damage?? Wouldn't that unbalance things a bit? Someone packing a SMG could take all the armour peircing rounds and their weapon would become as or more lethal than someone toting a LMG ??

[qswitch]

I2C serial eeproms are addressed via software, so you would need +5v, 0v, SCL and SDA lines only. The do have a hardware address to configure but in 99% of cases these are hard wired (its to allow up to 8 eeproms on the same bus, 3 bit address code)


Did anyone have a look at iButton products? (www.ibutton.com). The DS1992L has 1kbit memory, it's sealed and robust, requires only 2 contacts and the cost is a few dollars. Mount one on top of the clip, so that when you slide it in it wedges in the connector (which is basically just a disc). The problem may be if you drop a clip in the mud and then put it in without cleaning: the connector will be dirty and you need to clean it before it will work again.

[Danny]

Alternatively with the Ibutton type setup, Dallas also has many other 1-wire based products, and also available in a TO-92 package. You could house one of these inside the Clip, along with a 6.5mm Female Mono "Stereo Plug", and on the gun side of things, have the Male Plug..

I believe something like this would be quite strong, and reliable.. infact, i think the Clip will hold itself in the gun with the simple denture locking mechanism the 6.5mm stereo plug has..