Do you think Laser Tag should be a Professional Sport?

[Rommel]

Do you think Laser Tag should be a Professional Sport?

E.g like golf, football, soccer.

[AJ]

I don't know whether it is something that for everyone is affordable and to some acceptable to become a sport.

Can you imagine a state of origin style tournament on a friday night on TV or a lasertag event at the olympics? i can't dispite perhaps wanting too i can't.

[Fenriz]

Why not? Paintball tournies are filmed, has its own movie. So why can't LS get the same treatment, might be a few years down the track but something to look forward to. If it could be done ala "Running Man" helmet and gun mounted cameras feeding into an editing station, anything is going to be possible in the near future. Would be an expensive exercise with head cams at $400+ each. Or have larger paintball tourney air fields with cams everywhere.

[Yea-man!]

Yes.

[AJ]

hmmmn that would be cool and interesting at the same time, it would be nice to see a playback of how the other time played and moved...

[Mortisha]

I agree with you AJ, it would be cool to see the replays of the tactics each team uses, you could see the bigger picture, that'd be great! I'd love to see some pro's in action, i'd learn a lot and it'd be great fun to follow the different teams throughout the competition!:p

[Rommel]

another idea is to place a gps transmitter or something similar on the players so that you can view there positions on a 3d map in real time

[AJ]

Originally posted by Rommel
another idea is to place a gps transmitter or something similar on the players so that you can view there positions on a 3d map in real time

Hmmn that's interesting but i still think there is no substitute for a camera and microphone. let alone your own eyes.

[piglet]

You guys......view one of the realmedia shows at:

http://www.sabagetyou.com

See how the japanese have half-hour shop-supported tv shows, their different fields, footage of them playing, their tactics........lasertag has a long way to go....

Piglet has spoken!

[AJ]

yeh i guess your right, its getting known more laterly.

[Rommel]

I checked that site. Were they BB guns or paintball guns?

[piglet]

airsoft......oh the humanity of it all!

Piglet has sobbed with despair!

[AJ]

Originally posted by piglet
airsoft......oh the humanity of it all!

Piglet has sobbed with despair!

lol! that's funny. I can buy airsoft guns in singapore cheap if anyone wants one... here's the scary part, in indonesia u can buy guns (pistols mainly) :eek:

[Rommel]

How would you get airsoft guns into Australia without getting caught by the authorities?

[AJ]

lol hmmmn well you can't really. Not without a liseance.

[Snowman]

I think that even though it is physical, it comes down to tactics
and therefore may be more comparable to things like chess.
Though if it were a recognised sport, I would most cetainly sign
up.

[AJ]

Originally posted by Snowman
I think that even though it is physical, it comes down to tactics
and therefore may be more comparable to things like chess.
Though if it were a recognised sport, I would most cetainly sign
up.

I aggree, it is something you can do in teams or individually, you can take it seriously or just do it for the fun of it, who care.

[Fenriz]

I think that even though it is physical, it comes down to tactics
and therefore may be more comparable to things like chess.
Though if it were a recognised sport, I would most cetainly sign
up.

Great visual concept and I totally agree, gotta be thinking 10 steps ahead of the minds in the opposing force. BUT every sport has its own tactics, look at all the different plays and strategies they use in football, soccer, waterpolo, horse racing, Formula 1, the list goes on and on.
One thing though is, how can the missions be captured in a way to keep an audience glued to the action? How big is the field that needs to be covered? Whats the overall cost to cover the event? Are there enough teams? Obviously we are not as well established like the AFL teams.

well thats another 2 cents put on top of the fridge.

[Mortisha]

I logged onto the web site you suggested piglet and i couldn't understand any of it because it's all in Japanese by the looks of it, didn't know where to start with it:confused: But obviously there would initially need to be a lot of money invested to get it started, so you'd need sponsorships like other sports, and also players who are willing to train and dedicate time and interest into making it there profession. It would be an exciting prospect, it would take a lot of time, money and dedication to get the ball rolling, but it would be worth it, i believe, and many other sports have done it before LS:)

[Rommel]

Maybe we should get a committee setup to promote the sport.
All members would have to be independent from gun manufacturers ertc

[piglet]

A commitee sounds like a good idea - and the independence thing is spot on (gun manufacturers and field owners). You can have 1 representative from each lobby (gun & field) on the comittee, nominated by their peers with a tenure of 1 year, then they're replaced by another nominee.

Having said that either way, they would still have a part to play in any consultative processes etc.

I still feel that laser tag needs to have it's ground roots nurtured before we move to larger grandiose plans, and at the moment it's still a very dynamic game, with dynamic rules.

Rommel, mail me at admin@clan-haw.org and we can chat a bit more.

Piglet has smiled!

[Tunde]

Have you ever seen the show combat missions. I think that show proved that a laser tag game could be filmed and capture an audience. However it would be difficult for it to become as big of a sport as say football or soccer simply for the fact it is not spectator friendly.

[Tunde]

Originally posted by AJ
lol! that's funny. I can buy airsoft guns in singapore cheap if anyone wants one... here's the scary part, in indonesia u can buy guns (pistols mainly) :eek:

I don't see why being able to buy a pistol is scary to you. I can buy any type of gun
I want as long as it is not fully automatic or fires explosives. Not only that but I can wear it anywhere at anytime. I don't need a liscense for any of that. It isn't hard for me to get a liscense if i want one though, then no weapons are off limit. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

If you want to know about pain you should see what we use for SWAT training. Basically it is a real round but instead of firing a lead slug it fires paint. I'll tell you this, if you get tagged with one of those without proper protection you will go down and go down hard.

[Rommel]

Are you actualy training for SWAT or is it one of those yankee gun ho courses like the real thing?

[piglet]

They're called simunitions and they're not just used by SWAT.

Piglet has ......!

[Fenriz]

Originally posted by Tunde
Have you ever seen the show combat missions. I think that show proved that a laser tag game could be filmed and capture an audience.

No haven't seen nor heard of it. Is there any way for us to view this?

[Rommel]

They have got a very good web site for that tv show, but unfortunately I forget what the URL is

[Fenriz]

Originally posted by Rommel
They have got a very good web site for that tv show, but unfortunately I forget what the URL is

Yeah I found the website, but no downloadable footage of the show. Looks like a fantastic comp though, put bootcamp to shame.
http://www.usanetwork.com/series/combatmissions/

[Tunde]

Yes, they are called simunitions, and they hurt like hell. I am going in for the real deal SWAT training in about 2 1/2 weeks. Probably going to be the most exhausting couple of days of my life. If you guys want any information about what I learn, I will be happy to share with you.

[Rommel]

It would be cool to hear what you learn.

[Mortisha]

I think it would be easier to film an urban rather than an open field game for spectators. Say if you had like a warehouse/building situation set up with the roof missing so you could view from above and see the tactical side to the game, that would be great to watch, and you could compare how different teams go about the same objective in different ways. It would be hard to be a live spectator, but if it was captured for TV viewing i think that would be one possible way of doing it.

[Rommel]

That sounds cool to watch. And it would be easy and cheap to setup. Cool!

[Fenriz]

Originally posted by Mortisha
I think it would be easier to film an urban rather than an open field game for spectators. Say if you had like a warehouse/building situation set up with the roof missing so you could view from above and see the tactical side to the game, that would be great to watch, and you could compare how different teams go about the same objective in different ways. It would be hard to be a live spectator, but if it was captured for TV viewing i think that would be one possible way of doing it.

I agree that this is a very cool idea, paintball tourney field, or even a football oval in same situation would work too. just set the field up with strategically placed camo nets, rather than solid structures.

[piglet]

Just like "the rock" in Japan......

[Dangerous]

How would you get airsoft guns into Australia without getting caught by the authorities?

Thats quite easy.

1. Request from your local Police station the correct form to import a restricted item.
2. Arrange the purchase of the airsoft weapon of your choice. The weapon must not come with the firing mechanism.
3. Pay for weapon
4. Complete paperwork, and submit to customs.
5. Wait for phone call.

I have been advised by the Australian Customs Service and the Western Australia Police Service - Firearms Branch this will work in Western Australia. It probably won't work in other states. I can't do much about that.

Basically in WA, if you own an item that cannot be converted to fire, and you do not intend to go in public to 'incite terror', the police have no problem with it.

The reason why I have not purchased any Airsoft as yet, is a simple one. I have not found anyone that will sell me an Airsoft weapon without the firing mechanism. :(

[Tunde]

I think that for laser tag to work as a sport that people would want to watch it would have to be more like the show combat missions. It would have to be hardcore and extreme. The concepts I would like to see are team vs team battle, and scenario situation missions. It would have to be done big or I don't think it will work that well, however if done right it could be bigger than you can imagine.

[Fenriz]

Originally posted by Tunde
I think that for laser tag to work as a sport that people would want to watch it would have to be more like the show combat missions. It would have to be hardcore and extreme. The concepts I would like to see are team vs team battle, and scenario situation missions. It would have to be done big or I don't think it will work that well, however if done right it could be bigger than you can imagine.

You didn't happen to record this combat missions show by any chance? I'd love to see it.
From what I've read about it, it premiered a few years ago and one of the stars of the show was just recently killed in Fallujah on the 4th of April.

[Tunde]

Thats true. He was killed and i think they dragged his body through the streets. Its really sad, he was one hell of an operative. i wish i had the whole season recorded, it was incredible, however I don't. I will look for some clips or whole shows and let you know if i find any. When my field has our first season of clan play we are going to model it around the show. It will involve certain types of missions against our elite team as well as the teams fighting against each other. For a pro sport though all the fields will need to unite and come up with the same regulations and game play system.

[Dangerous]

For a pro sport though all the fields will need to unite and come up with the same regulations and game play system.

Thats a problem we have also come up with.

We are at this time starting to work out what constraints should be placed around those that wish to bring their own weapons onto the field.

The main thing we have to work out is test criteria. If any gun passes each of the criteria, then it should be allowed into any non-clan event. Thats the way we are thinking.

But yes, there is also the idea where certain game-play is not allowed. This also has to be determined.

Once all this is done, we should have a nice even playing field for everyone.

As a start to the above, we are going to adopt the UK system as closely as we can. If you want further info, please don't hesitate to ask.

[Tunde]

What is the UK system like? It would be great if as many of the fields as possible from around the world could discuss this and come to an agreement. I think that having uniform league play on an international basis would really lay solid ground work for a successful sport.

[Dangerous]

The first thing that is covered by the UK is reload times.

The formula to determine the reload time for any weapon is simple:

Round the number of rounds held per clip up to the next 10.

Example: 31 becomes 40, 99 becomes 100.

Divide this by 10 (40 is 4, 100 is 10)

Multiple this number by .75

4 x .75 = 3.
10 x .75 = 7.5

The minimum reload time allowed is 4, and all numbers are rounded to the nearest .5

3 is 4
7.5 is 7.5

This covers the fact that people may have 'Uber' guns with hundreds of rounds per clip. However, it will take a long time to reload.

I would like to put in place other rules governing ROF and number of lives.

In addition to this, I will also be designing an IR test jig. Any custom weapon must have to sit in this jig and be able to hit only those sensors allowed at a certain range and diameter. This will prevent 180 degree wide super weapons.

On the other hand, I also have to design a jig where the hit sensors must sit, and be able to be hit by a low power tag gun.

If the guns fail one or more of these simple tests, it cannot be used.

There probably should be other criteria also.

[Polymorph]

That's dangerous thinking! Er, I mean Dangerous thinking.

I agree. I want to do the same as far as portable test equipment for laser tag games.

I'm thinking:

A relative measure of power as measured with a PIN photodiode. This is not related to width of the beam.

A visual indication via BW video camera (with IR pass filter) of the width of the beam. Perhaps with several PIN photodiodes measuring power at select points.

Some kind of readout of both the carrier and the modulation frequencies. Something that does not require the gun to be opened except to adjust if necessary.

An emitter with power level stepped up from nearly nothing up until the sensor just detects it. This is just going to be a subjective measurement, determined by testing. Take some reference sensor out until it's too far to hit, then bring it in until it is hit and write down that distance. Now try different power levels with an emitter and find the lowest level it scores a hit, and call that X distance.

[AJ]

Ok guys this is getting off topic this type of advanced stuff is best put in the reasearch and development forum.

Thanks.

[Dangerous]

Ok.

I am going to create a 'Testing' Topic.

http://www.laserforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299

AJ, please move the above couple of messages to this topic.

Thanks.

[Mortisha]

I do agree with what you are all generally saying; there needs to be set guidelines. I think especially where weapons are concerned to be fair. There would have to be restrictions on the guns abilities
so that people don't show up with the most hotted-up gun you've ever seen and takes everyone out in a few shots (yet to see it be done....but you know what i mean), it just makes for a fairer playing field. Otherwise it could go down the path Motor Racing went down for a while that the wealthiest people put together the best cars that could do rediculous things and it leaves it all open to corruption, AND it would just get plain boring watching the same teams win all the time just because they have better weapons, then there wouldn't be a competition!:p

[Tunde]

Has anyone come up with ideas on what kind of game laser tag would be as a sport? Do you think it would be best to have different classification like paintball does (ex. speedball, 5 man, xball)? I am sure different people like to play different types of LS. Like I said earlier in this thread, I would like to see it be similar to the show combat missions. I'm a hardcore milsim lover. I'm sure there must be other opinions about what kind of game should be played. What kind of game would you like to see be part of the sport?

[Stone]

Yes It Should Be! :d

[Leo]

How awesome would it be! National tournaments... LS Olympics. :P

[Lateo]

i cant see it working as a sport, to many variables, i mean guns alone, who would use how do montior them?

[Ozzy]

If it would come to legit contests with even monetary awards, I see single-manufacturer gear owned by the field as the only option. It's the only way of making sure players will have no cheats programmed/built in their systems (a problem with electronics-controlled paintball markers).

Lasertag would be a good basis for a gameshow, especially if the IR "beams" would be enhanced in the video post-processing for added action. An arena would work best for that, and they could be purposefully designed for ease of recording.

The Unreal Tournament or Quake Arena series of computer games could be used as a basis for making the format. It might sound corny to have "laser gladiators", but pro-wrestling is a big hit in television even if it doesn't have any real contest going on...

[fukkenuziman]

I agree that if it were more milsim based like "combat missions" was, it would stand a better chance at being a successful sport. There would have to be a standard just like any other sport, so if you wanted to participate, then you would have to conform to the standard. A well thought out system of scoring would be a must, and a wide variety of missions that ranged from simple (speed round) battles to very in depth, multiple objective missions. I would sign up!!

[Tunde]

Well, like it has already been stated, there would need to be standards for the equipment and a way to test the equipment used. Like any other sport, people are allowed to use whatever equipment they like as long as it meets the regulations. It already was a game show though, called Combat Missions.

[Ekkostorm]

I have to agree with some of the opinions I've seen so far. Watching an entire game of laser tag would be more like watching chess than basketball, football, etc. Unfortunately, Tag would be just too slow to hold the attention of most sports fans in general. On the other hand, It is a sport that would lend itself to the same idea as a lot of the snowboarding and wakeboarding, paintball etc videos that are out there, being 30 minutes to and hour of action footage.

If anything, Tag could be treated something like (here it comes...) Warhammer games are treated. You play the game, then debrief and write down the account.

Hope I'm not entirely off track here, but, you asked.

Officially, I would have to say no, it wouldn't make a good sport. For most people, that would be too much like watching History channel (Something I like doing, but most wouldn't). :tank:

[Yea-man!]

What about small cameras mounted on heads, would that assist in bringing the game closer to the lounge room. Also recording the radio chatter and playing it with the vision may increase tension for the viewer? Out there.

[Tunde]

oh, I think that would be a must. Need to bring the audience into the action. I suppose it would not be a very spectator friendly sport. No sitting in the stands if the game wa like combat missions.

[Tunde]

Wouldn't one dare say that golf is about as slow as games get? Doesn't it draw spectators? I agree that LS would be difficult to watch from the sidelines, but incorporating ideas such as head cameras, broadcasting radio chatter and anything that would draw the audience in close could overcome that. Who knows? Most non-mainstream sports face resistance when they are first trying to breakthough, doesn't mean that they won't be successful. Will LS ever have a World Series, Superbowl or World Cup... doubtful, but I don't think that it should be lumped in the same category as Warhammer.

[fukkenuziman]

Sorry, Tunde logged into my computer last. The last post was mine.... woops!

[Tunde]

Thanks for telling me, I was reading it and thought I was losing my mind. I was like, "when in the hell did I write that!"

[fukkenuziman]

LOL... sorry byatch! I thought I lost my mind as well when I saw your avatar next to my words... I thought the Tequila was taking over!!! :p

[Tunde]

Well what kind of games would you like to see played if LS was a sport?

[Rommel]

SWAT missions, stuff people can relate to.

[Tunde]

Oh, brilliant idea. easy to film all the action, and takes strategy, and skill. Love that idea.

[Ekkostorm]

Didn't consider SWAT stuff... That is a Tape/DVD I would buy.

[Colin]

...Also recording the radio chatter and playing it with the vision may increase tension for the viewer? Out there.

Maybe even have heart rate monitors like they have for car racing... you could then add the heart beat sound when filming that player... maybe a bit more tension?

[fukkenuziman]

Heck yeah... then wire up an Ab Stimulator to their temple and watch their heart rate spike off the chart when they take a hit!

But seriously, the heart rate monitor would be pretty cool. With all of the above mentioned, it would be like watching a terrorist hunt on Rainbow Six.

[Tunde]

Now the question is, would they be able to use SWAT gear? You know, like throwing flashbang grenades, or cs gas, blowing doors up with breach charges and those breach shotgun rounds. If they don't get to use any tools like that SWAT may just end up getting slaughtered.

[Rommel]

The cost of Insurance would kill the organisers if they were to allow real SWAT misc items in the game setup.

[Ozzy]

If it's supposed to be a sport, I see the quake-style arena as a more viable option for the format than SWAT missions.

Depends on the theme of the show, though. Combining multiple formats might be an option - A random picked team of applicants will go against the "professional taggers" in multiple scenarios - a bit like Harlin's "Gladiators" a couple years ago.

[Lateo]

That style of comp already exisits with in the indoor world of tagging, out door has been about large numbers. the biggest problems is most of the players i know are ego individuals and this is a team game.

[Ekkostorm]

Hence the effect of Doom style games on people. They get good at a first person shooter, and get a puffed up ego, and that carries over into the arena...

[Rommel]

People with big egos would make the tournament more interesting to watch because it would increase competitiveness between teams and players.

[Lateo]

ego dont mis well in teams and a low level people jus get put off by idiots that play the game and think they are better than everyone else

[Thorin]

It would bring the chain of command into it alot. And increse the tension in the teams.

[Dangerous]

We play a little differently to most. There are four types of game we play.

1. Clan sessions
2. Open sessions
3. Super sessions
4. Elite sessions

Types 1 to 3 are played on small fields, each 100 metres by 50 metres. This is to increase the tempo of the game.

Type 4 is played in much larger areas. The last one we played was over an area 2 kilometres long by about 500 metres wide (A regional park). This has the effect of increasing the players realism level, and to promote teamwork.

A clan game is one where a clan plays against another for points that goes towards determining the clans position on a ladder. They are 5 member clans.

An open session can be any number of players, in two, sometimes three, mostly even teams.

A super session can be any number of team and players, not necessarily with equal numbers, and usually in a sci-fi scenario.

And to top this off, types 1, 3 and 4 are played at night. Open sessions sometimes go into the night.

Some examples of clan games we play are as follows:

1. Base Attack
Attackers 9 Defenders 5 Time 14
Defend the
base against the attackers. If the attackers get into the base and are able to stay in there for one minute, the game is over. The winner of the game is the attacking team that has the most number of lives remaining.

Negative aspects
Game can be played with no winner.
Game can be completed under the period given.
Game can result in a draw, but this is not likely.

Requirements
1 Base area


2. Sniper Attack
Attackers 9 Defenders 9 Sniper 5 Time 25
Defend your base and prevent the enemy sniper from entering. At the same time, provide support for your sniper to enter the enemy base. The Sniper has no team light. The winner is the team with the most successful attacks.

Negative aspects
None

Requirements
2 Base areas


3. Medic Death Match
Attackers 4 Defenders 4 Medic 9 Time 25
This is a Team Death Match derivative. Defend your medic whilst at the same time at the same time attack the opposing team to kill their medic. Players may respawn while their own medic is alive. Medic is able to respawn players an unlimited number of times, but only for the first 15 minutes. Medic cannot respawn. The Medic has no team light. A referee respawns the players, but the referee must be able to see the medic at all times. The winner is the team with the last player left alive.

Negative aspects
Game can be completed under the period given, but not often.

Requirements
None


4. Death by Numbers
Attackers Special Defenders Special Time 25
This is a Team Death Match derivative. All players start with one life. As each player per team is respawned, the number of lives given to the respawned player increases by one. For example, the first player killed respawns with one life, the next with two, the next with three etc. The winning team is the one with the least number of respawns.

Negative aspects
Game can result in a draw, but this is not likely.

Requirements
None


With the games we play it is very easy to see how spectators can get excited watching the games. We already have a number of people that like to sit on the sidelines and watch us play, especially during semi-finals and finals.

Camera's are something we are investigating, as are vests and wireless 'tethers' from gun to vest.

[fukkenuziman]

Egos are present in every sport, that isn't going to be any different for LS, nor can it be avoided. I agree with Rommel that big egos make things interesting. Nothing feels better than to take down some punk that has been running his mouth all day!! :boxing:
Yes, it can have a negative effect on players with less experience, but you wouldn't mix noobs with highly advanced players. High School sports don't compete against College or Professional, so why would you mix up different caliber players for LS? (when it becomes a sport, not referring to the commercial aspect) If people want to claim that they are a billy bad-@ss and compete against elite players, then I don't want to hear them whine when they get owned and I add a little salt to the wound. There is always going to be trash talking, so when it is among players with similar skill levels, then who cares. It adds flava !! :D

[Mike]

Yes,but it won't...not right now anyway.

Not even paintball can be considered big enough to be an olympic sport.

Laser tag has been on tv before but only a few shows were aired and I never saw it agian.

the way they did it was a team of 6(i think) had a certain amount of time to infiltrate a building and complete a certain task and remove any threats along the way.

depending on how good they did they would receive money to buy back dead players,get more ammo,etc. getting your player back costs the most and ammo wasn't cheap either.

I believe they did 3-4 different missions each show.

It was ok,but getting your face in the mud is much more satisfying than watching other people have fun.

BTW if it was to be olympic sport what form of laser tag would it be?

You could do sci-fi Halo type games,Military simulation,speedball type play,spy splinter cell type scenarios,urban warfare,ect.

just to many ways to play it lol

[MrRabbitX]

Maybe not pro, but more recreational
Be good to have a big tournment day in perth
Have a collabration of all the Outdoor Lasertag businesses