Equipment

[Montgomery]

What kind of equipment are you using, does ti have some kind of "identification function". That you can see who shot who?

[Rommel]

We use Battlefield Sports equipment at the Brisbane field. There is no 'identification function', so it is sometimes hard to find out who killed you.

[Trapper]

There is always the brag factor (no not bragg thats a different factor) to work out who shot you. Who ever comes back braging that they shot so and so isn't the one who shot him. The Bragg factor is quite an easy one to work out. it was the first one to stop laughing is the one who shot him.

[Tunde]

I use BFS equipment. What other kind of equipment is available?

[Rommel]

Other equipment available,

Pulse Ranger
Steridian Tech
& maybe more in the future

[AJ]

Yep as rommel said in the next few months there are a few other companies opening up for buisness.

[Tunde]

Do you know where I could purchase a WWII air raid siren?

[Rommel]

There might be one on Ebay (http://www.ebay.com) if you are lucky. Also check Collectors Armoury (http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au). Surely there must be a site on the net that only sells air raid sirens.

[Polymorph]

For the guns that send an ID, do you get an instant readout of who just hit you, or does it require button pressing or computer download?

I've got to decide if I'm going to design my own system or use something like David Roman's system when it's ready.

I think being able to have teams and unique IDs is important, and I also think it'd be very cool to have the LCD on your gun give the gun ID of whoever shot you.

I suppose you could even program in their name but then instead of a simple 8 bit code to ID the guns, you'd need to send at least 20 ASCII
characters each time.

[TINUZ]

why dont you use jim robertson miles tag...it has id from who shot you and alot of extras....a very cool design if you ask me.

[Polymorph]

It does not appear to be very close to being done. No sound, and I keep hearing bad things about the range of TSOPs in sunlight.

[TINUZ]

well i think it should be possible to attach an isd soundchip in a newer version. the miles tag has great potential. and i think the tsops are being worked on

[Tunde]

I think the Milestag looks outstanding, but needs improvement. I really want a digital system. Hopefully soon BFS will come out with a digital design.

[Polymorph]

Originally posted by Tunde
I think the Milestag looks outstanding, but needs improvement. I really want a digital system. Hopefully soon BFS will come out with a digital design.

I'm confused. how is the Milestag system -not- digital right now?

[TINUZ]

beats me! what exactly do you mean by "digital" tunde?

[Tunde]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. When I said I want a digital system I was not reffering to Milestag. I was saying I want a digital system instead of the analog gear I use right now. I think BFS makes great weapons but I would really like to see them go digital like the Milestag gear.

[plan]

Our position is that digital leads to individual scoring which is opposite our whole emphasis. We are about team play and team objectives with team victory or loose. We do not want to let happen to laser skirmish what happened to indoor lasertag in this respect. One has to be very careful about what features are added, so that they don't damage the game. With the system we have now, we have had no trouble simulating a broad range of infantry actions from WWI missions right through to sci-fi.

To be effective digital requires either a radio network, very unreliable in the outdoor environment or a data upload/download to a central computer system before/after each game. Very tedious especially when often times when we play we don't even return to the main armoury between missions or phases of a mission. Even today after 20 years, indoor lasertag in a controlled environment unlike us, still has problems with reliable radio system use.

The bottom line is that the BFS system is very simple yet a lot of fun, people have a great time playing and that is all that matters.

[Tunde]

Oh, don't get me wrong, BFS gear is top notch. I agree you wouldn't want to stray from the team aspect of the game. However the digital outdoor systems I have seen allow for some very interesting aspects of gameplay. The ability to have medics and different damage rates for say the grenade launcher and claymore might add a lot to the play. Also i like
the idea of a sound for a near miss. From an operators stand point being able to point and click to reset a gun would make things much easier. I would not want to change the whole BFS system but would love to see select additions such as those. Do you not agree if done wisely some digital features could enhance the Laser Skirmish game play?

[plan]

Well the near-miss is effectively handled through having multiple hits points. All hits before the last hit should be considered near miss.

From a combat simulation point of view, the reality is one hit and the soldier is deaded or wounded to a point of not fighting anymore. Modern rifles are that lethal. Variable damage therefore makes little sense in an modern infantry simulation. The only protection a modern rifleman has against bullets is to use cover not to be exposed.


We do have some plans to add additional features, but it will be evolutionary process, because we believe in properly testing these things for practicality and game balance before production release. Sadly some of our competitors don't take the time to get these sort of things right and release products/features never properly tested in a commercial environment. Some indeed, have never operated an actual battlefield.

[Pooh Bear]

Modern ballistic technology in most cases will indeed take you down, if used correctly. So if you were to use multiple hit points as a “near miss” replacement it kind of defeats the purpose. Hit points are just that. They show that you have been “hit”. So from a combat sim point of view, All hits before the last hit should be considered near miss would, in my opinion, be inaccurate.

[Rommel]

Originally posted by plan
We are about team play and team objectives with team victory or loose.

Umm. This happens on very rare occasions. Characters with big egos usually claim victory for themselves. But I do agree that people loose as a team because individual don't want to accept blame.

[plan]

Personally I prefer playing on 2 hit points. The first "hit" is your warning and the second hit your down.

A lot of our business Rommel is corporate team building, this is where the emphasis on the team is so important. Teenage males tend to focus a lot on themselves as you note. Individual scoring is a disaster for young birthday parties too. So the only group individual scoring suites is ego oriented individualists who are generally the best players. Our preference is for this group to go and play indoor lasertag etc. We want people focused on having fun as a team. We can't be all things to all people and we are not going to try.

This Sunday I'm planning on doing a 3 phase mission simulating Rommels infantry battles in WWI with his mountain troops against french led Romanians. I'm looking at some automatic surrender rules for the Romanians if their officer is dead or not nearby while under close assault by the Germans. Because WWI is almost all infantry battles and generally low tech, it makes a good basis for missions, especially now we have the bolt action mode. I have not see HAW etc for a while, this might be an opportunity to see you guys back in action with a low hit point advanced mission. Hope so.

[AJ]

Originally posted by plan
[B]Personally I prefer playing on 2 hit points. The first "hit" is your warning and the second hit your down.

I agree it makes things more realistic, although sometimes because it is a pain to have to walk so far to get respawned i would say i prefer 3 hit points to give you enough time to cover yourself and then run away if possible. This may take away SOME of the realistic'ness' of the game but it certainly adds to the practical aspect which the majority of players (all bar the uber elite) want.

[Tunde]

I usually like to play with two hit points also. When I was thinking about different damage levels I was looking at having the first bullet from a weapon wound you but if you get hit by the grenade launcher it should wipe you out. As you start coming up with new features I would be happy to give you some constructive feedback.

Just for my knowledge, since I am still learning about the tech side of things, how exactly does the near miss work with Milestag?

[Rommel]

Originally posted by plan
So the only group individual scoring suites is ego oriented individualists who are generally the best players. Our preference is for this group to go and play indoor lasertag etc. We want people focused on having fun as a team.

HAHAHAHA. Who is going to ref then?

[Dangerous]

how exactly does the near miss work with Milestag?

If valid IR data is received, though not enough repititions to constitute a valid hit, this is a near miss.

By the way, information such as this will not be forthcoming from BFS, as it has nothing to do with BFS. There is another website you would have to visit to get that and similar information.

[Builty]

Originally posted by Tunde
Just for my knowledge, since I am still learning about the tech side of things, how exactly does the near miss work with Milestag?

Also if any pulses are received that are not of valid length it will trigger a near miss, including so much as a single pulse from the sun.
I think it wouldn't cope well with the Aussie sun.

My 0.20 on the digital enhanced tag systems: I played recently, on a team of pretty keen adults in camo (crawling through the grass, aiming properly etc), against a team of kids, dressed in street clothes, shooting from the hip and getting slaughtered.
The Refs claimed they were keeping track of how many times players were reset, but I have the distinct impression it was weighted heavily in the kids favour, to ensure they had fun.

Adding a digital systemat least makes it objective as to the winner, not easily rigged by sympathetic refs. Even if the individual player scores are hidden, the ability to accurately determine which team got the most kills is got to be an advantage.

About weapon damage; you say modern rifles are one shot one kill, but look at what you are holding, an invented sci-fi rifle! Hardly realistic itself. Why not make it so small weapons like a spitfire do small damage, and the big morita does more. Maybe its not realistic, but neither is your weapon and I think it would add more to the game play; rewards you for having to carry a 5kg monster
around.

Also, I can't say that I have real combat experience but from my readings on the topic modern 5.56mm rounds have less stopping power than older 7.62mm rounds. Nobody would argue that a 50cal is going to tear you up worse than a small calibre rifle. Why not let weapon damage reflect this kind of variable?

I think its time for technology to advance beyond the decades old wow gear.

[Tunde]

I agree with most of what you say. However I would just like to point out that one of the most lethal rounds is the .22. It is easy to shoot and if you are not wearing body armor when it breaches your body it will ricochet off your bones hitting multiple vital organs.

[Builty]

Originally posted by Tunde
I agree with most of what you say. However I would just like to point out that one of the most lethal rounds is the .22. It is easy to shoot and if you are not wearing body armor when it breaches your body it will ricochet of your bones hitting multiple vital organs.

OK I'll believe you, but hopefully we can agree that there is some scope for variable damage from different projectiles, even if its not directly proportional to calibre.

I'm thinking that to approximate a weapons damage, we could multiply the weapons muzzle velocity by its calibre, and multiply that by a factor to take into account special abilities of the bullet eg explosive tips, hollow point, bone richocet etc.

[Dangerous]

To get an approximation of damage, why not use the weapons damage tables from traditional P&P RPG's?

The modern weaponry ones already have the damages in there.

Some examples:
http://dansego.com/matrix/LaBow.PDF
http://www.gurpsmaster.de/weaptab.htm

[Builty]

Originally posted by Dangerous
To get an approximation of damage, why not use the weapons damage tables from traditional P&P RPG's?

The modern weaponry ones already have the damages in there.

Some examples:
http://dansego.com/matrix/LaBow.PDF
http://www.gurpsmaster.de/weaptab.htm

Looks great to me, hard work already done! Nice work Dangerous.

Do these tables help to convince anybody that variable weapon damage is not a silly idea?

[Dangerous]

I always thought it was a great idea!

[Tunde]

I was with you the whole time at least to the point that there is a big difference between getting hit with a 9mm bullet and having a freakin claymore explode at your feet.

[Builty]

I was
aiming that comment more at some of the earlier posters, who said that modern arms get instant kills regardless. I'd like them to provide some more sound reasons why laser tag shouldn't move with the times and advance from decades old technlogy.

I suspect the reasons have more to do with not wanting to invest money to update existing weapons (fair) and BFS's apparent lack of interest in anything beyond WOW, for reaons not known (but I have some theories.)

[Rommel]

The main laser tag manufacturing companies are probably happy with their current market share. I mean there aren't alot of other manufacturing companies. So there isn't much competition at the moment. For technology to advance, there has to be competitive competition in the market sector. Zero competition = zero commercial technological advances.

Hence why commercial laser tag technology has come to a stand still

[Builty]

Agreed. Lets see if the release of FragTag and MilesTag can wake them up from development slumber.

[Tunde]

I would be on the look out for Steradian to stir things up. I've heard some chatter about some killer products they may be coming out with soon. Maybe that will help push other companies to keep moving foward.

[Rommel]

What products are they releasing?

[AJ]

There is also another company in australia called lasercombat although i dont know if it has or ever will go into production?..

[Dangerous]

Be careful guys...

There is Lazercombat and there is Lasercombat.

I play at a field run by Lasercombat.

Lazercombat is run by some guys in Sydney (I think).

They have nothing to do with the other.

[Tunde]

Originally posted by Rommel
What products are they releasing?
At this time I am not at liberty to say, but I will keep you posted.

[Fatty]

You all seem to think BFS has no interest in developing new stuff, like the variable damage and stuff... What would you be basing that on? The commando was the last R&D thing being worked on, and there are things being worked on now... That's Priest's job after all :)

[AJ]

Originally posted by Dangerous
Be careful guys...

There is Lazercombat and there is Lasercombat.

I play at a field run by Lasercombat.

Lazercombat is run by some guys in Sydney (I think).

They have nothing to do with the other.

Good point, easy mistake.. sorry.

It is half brisbane, half sydney btw.

[Builty]

Originally posted by Fatty
You all seem to think BFS has no interest in developing new stuff, like the variable damage and stuff... What would you be basing that on? The commando was the last R&D thing being worked on, and there are things being worked on now... That's Priest's job after all :)

We are making assumptions based on tiny titbits and hints, so I guess we are working in the dark. Plan's comments from earlier in this thread seemed to imply that he was representing BFS, and that BFS's opinion was that team scoring wrecks team play.

Perhaps its time for us to stop the speculation.

[Tunde]

I'm pretty sure BFS will continue to progress but I don't buy the arguments I have heard against a digital system.

[Rommel]

Perhaps the reason behind the arguments about individual scoring etc. are because those companies/people are having trouble developing those systems, so they pull the wool over everybody elses eyes so others don't try it.

[Builty]

If so, I'd be happy to sell them some FragTag boards :D

[Fatty]

Ok, first, as for team scoring, etc, what Plan said, yeah, that's how BFS intends to go, we don't do it, probably never will...

As for individual scoring/keeping track of who hit who, I have every faith in Priest's ability to implement that... If he wanted, which last I heard, he doesn't... And his boss (Plan) doesn't want it either, so I don't see him wasting his time on it any time soon... He has other things to do and I'm sure he will do them with his customary efficiency... So it's not that he can't do it, it's just we don't want him to do it...

A lot of people follow the KISS rule, Keep It Simple Stupid... yeah, there's a lot of people on this forum that was to do more complex stuff, but there are plenty of people with BFS equipment who aren't on the forums, and are very happy with their gear because it is simple, it works and they have lots of customers wanting to give them money... You give the customer what they want... But you can't give every single customer what they want either... Most people don't want to make it more complicated...

A lot of operators like the fact that some little kid can come back thinking he shot everyone 10 times, and be really happy and keep coming back, and never be able to find out that he didn't hit a single person... I've worked at an indoor lasertag place, and it's actually quite funny to see kids come out, see the score board, then nearly burst into tears... Or the one kid in the party who gets picked on cos he didn't hit anything... Or everyone bitching because a regular player went in and owned everyone, despite the fact that that regular also paid to play the game... I can think of plenty of times not knowing the scores is good...

It's all well and good to want these complicated things for yourself (it's like the more complicated games in indoor lasertag), good for regulars, they have more fun, gives them a challenge and stuff, but in terms of making the money, keeping the masses happy, KISS... Don't think I'm berating you for working on this stuff, I'm not, go for it, I'd love to use it when you get it finished, but I'm jsut saying it's not necessarily what everyone wants, and like it or not, BFS is a business that is out to make money (GOOD, cos they pay me after all!) so they do what will make them the most money...

[Trapper]

fatty is right, and to behonest i have to agree with him on watching someone almost burst into tears. I went a played some tag at laserforce (where fatty worked but before his time i belive) one day when i was around 15/16 and went in with a little group of kids, i had them all bailed up in the back corner just popping them off. danm it was funny (yes i know i sound like a total prick but you try it one day)

[Tunde]

I would have to agree Fatty is right about the individual scoring. It should be a team game. Individual scores would possibly ruin the game. There are many things that a digital system can offer that just seem like progress. Those things would help elevate our sport above paintball while taking a far different route than indoor laser tag.

[Rommel]

Fatty, so what you are saying is that little n00b kids are more important then regulars? That is the reason why I stopped playing at the Brisbane (Mt Cotton) field. You lot only play deathmatches, and other simple missions suitable for little kids.

I believe that for a battlefield to be successful they have to hook the n00bs in, convert them to regulars and then keep the regulars interested in the game, and do everything to keep them playing. Regulars are the biggest money spenders, so why get rid of them by only catering for little kids? Its just like sending a grade 12 student back to grade 7, that student is going to be bored out of their mind because everything is going to be to simple (easy). Therefore, I believe that the sport should evolve with the players. If we just say, lets not even try to improve the sport, lets just leave it the way that it is, because it is working. Then people are going to find other things to do because they won't find the sport interesting anymore. Hence why technology should evolve.

I could just about right an essay about this topic. So I will stop now.

! Change is Good !

[BaalZBub]

Ah cool, a heated discussion. Why cant you cater to both markets, just because you have and ID system installed does'nt necessarily mean you turn it on or even hand out score cards to everyone. You can have levels of play, Noobs and advanced. Maximise your clientele, Economics 101!

[Dangerous]

does'nt necessarily mean you turn it on

EXACTLY!

[Builty]

You beat me to the EXACTLY call. If you want a simple Noob game, just run the system in WOW/compatibility mode. Or in an advanced mode but just don't bother downloading the scores. Or download the scores and just announce the winning team. Or just the highest scorer. Or all scores, or whatever.

Its not like just because your system can do everything, you don't always need to actually use it for all groups.
Maybe if you had a complex system you could find a whole new market of more advanced players, who want accurate simulation of real world combat.

I don't agree with catering for the lowest common denominator, although its a common business practise and is often the easy way out. On the positive however you do leave open some nice business opportunities for others to create and sell this kind of
gear :)

[BaalZBub]

I don't agree with catering for the lowest common denominator, although its a common business practise and is often the easy way out. On the positive however you do leave open some nice business opportunities for others to create and sell this kind of gear

Or even a complete alternative game arena business...

[Colin]

Besides scoring, I think some more important features should make it into the BFS gear...

For example, medic and ammo carriers would be an excellent idea and do work - I've played games with these kind of characters at indoor arenas. The ammo carrier is actually very interesting as the bigger gun guys can hold an area for a while, but need constant resupply from the ammo carrier.

Also maybe the guns should be programmable in the field? I don't think its going to cost each field owner too much to get a laptop and be able to hook the guns to the laptop and download different configurations?

Also, it seems that Refs have to always re-key people into the game - why can't this be automated? Like in the arena games, we walk through a recharge station. How hard would it really be for BFS gear to have the same thing, except the recharge station is field portable.

I've always though it a bit silly that the guns always pop up their configuration everytime you turn them on. How about the gun goes into its last known configuration, unless you hold down a button while turning it on - in which case it would then take you to the configuration. This would be extremely useful in those medic games where you can have a non-ref player being the ref.

Now theres my list of improvements without worrying about the scoring side of things...

[Builty]

Good call. The player config can be stored in the Eeprom and is then non-volatile, removing the need for config at each powerup.
RF in the field may not be easy by even something like an RFID butto waved over each gun to set its config is going to be easier and faster than a key turn.
You could have different RFID devices for different scenarios. This months Silicon Chip mag has an article/project on them.

Another possibility is having a "god gun" that shoots the config into the system, as per the military Miles system (and MilesTag.)

You BFS guys should wander over to the MilesTag site and have a read of some of the other cool things that he has in his protocol definition; simulations of poison gas, nukes, sentrys; test modes, device cloning, medics, security codes etc. The possibilities are far more than just player scoring. Sending a couple of bytes encoded in IR is all it takes.

Sure it sounds complex but you could just use the bits you need. Could open a larger market for software upgrades as new features are developed.

[Builty]

Originally posted by Fatty
As for individual scoring/keeping track of who hit who, I have every faith in Priest's ability to implement that... If he wanted, which last I heard, he doesn't...

Thats funny, seeing as he was a major instigator recently in trying to come up with a standard for data over IR for exactly this kind of thing we are talking about:
http://www.blackbelt.dfhq.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17

[Rommel]

Ain't that amazing, Fatty is making assumptions again.

[Priest]

Look what happens when Im away playing for several days. Sheesh.

You can all speculate what you like about BFS research priorities and what will and wont be altered. The trouble is none of you know. I however do.

I will say this now, a full data transmission system that will be capable of everything you mention plus more is in development.

It will however be a multiphase process. The idea is to do it in such a way that operators EXISTING guns can be upgraded to the data system with a simple software upgrade.

Of course there will also be a next generation of electronics to that will have extra hardware to accomodate some of the other plans we have.

My slant on the data system is to implement extra features like multiple damage levels, ammo, health, configuration etc but still not to do an individual score as that would ruin any team aspect and is only required for ego boosting of certain player types.

Of course as its only data it would be easy to implement.

Have any of you actually tried sending data in a real world situation yet while in Australia ? If you think interference from the sun is bad now with just a wow compatible signal wait till you try to accurately send data.

Phil

[Priest]

Actually Rommel he isnt making assumptions. You are.

If you read the thread that Builty linked to more closely you will see that it was moved to that forum from the old one. As such the posters names on the threads got screwed up and my name was appended to some of them.

If you actually read the content you will find I have never wanted an individual player id.

[Builty]

Originally posted by Priest
I will say this now, a full data transmission system that will be capable of everything you mention plus more is in development.



Great to hear that Priest.



Have any of you actually tried sending data in a real world situation yet while
in Australia ? If you think interference from the sun is bad now with just a wow compatible signal wait till you try to accurately send data.


Not yet, but I'll be able to tell you how it goes in a week or two.

[Tunde]

Thanks Priest you have put my mind at ease. I knew deep in my heart that you were not so blind to dismiss the possibilities of a data transmisson system. Didn't mean to start a revolution ;)

[Builty]

Are you planning on advancing the sport generally by making the communications standard open, or only benefiting yourselves by keeping it closed and proprietry?
Obviously you would keep the code to yourself but it would be nice if an open standard could be established, to allow interoperability of weapons and systems.

Perhaps you could release a few more titbits of information about the system, to prove that you are serious, and not just making statements to try to prevent the upgrading of BFS weapons to higher tech boards.

[Big Slug]

Originally posted by Rommel
Fatty, so what you are saying is that little n00b kids are more important then regulars? That is the reason why I stopped playing at the Brisbane (Mt Cotton) field. You lot only play deathmatches, and other simple missions suitable for little kids.

I believe that for a battlefield to be successful they have to hook the n00bs in, convert them to regulars and then keep the regulars interested in the game, and do everything to keep them playing. Regulars are the biggest money spenders, so why get rid of them by only catering for little kids? Its just like sending a grade 12 student back to grade 7, that student is going to be bored out of their mind because everything is going to be to simple (easy). Therefore, I believe that the sport should evolve with the players. If we just say, lets not even try to improve the sport, lets just leave it the way that it is, because it is working. Then people are going to find other things to do because they won't find the sport interesting anymore. Hence why technology should evolve.



I could just about right an essay about this topic. So I will stop now.

! Change is Good !


Rommel you are without doubt the leading authority on how to run a successful laser skirmish business........into the
ground!!

Most of your money comes from occasional players and most of your headaches come from knobs want to pretend they are at war but are too scared to join the army!!

Granted that there should be more effort put into converting noobies into regulars, but that’s up to the individual owners to decide. Maybe if the regular players were a bit nicer and courteous to the new players more would come back? But why would they want to play with a bunch of egotistical bell ends!! If regular players are serious about growing the sport and getting better competition then they should be a little smarter about it!!

Rommel, you play most weeks don't you?
So over the course of a year you would cough up about $1000 ??
Mate that is just one half decent beginners session?? So kids birthday parties might not be as appealing but they certainly pay more bills then hard to please (not all regulars are this bad, but the younger ones tend to be) regulars!!

[Fatty]

Finally, Priest surfaces from the deep... I couldn't say much cos it's not my place, he knows what's going on and how much he's allowed to divulge... But a lot of what Colin mentioned a few posts ago is being looked at...

Good to see someone with some common sense has appeared too... Wow, never thought I'd say that about Rico (big slug)... Yes Rommel, I am saying that little n00bs are more important than regulars... Cos without them, it's not viable to run a field.. How many fields can support their business on just regulars? Regulars come from the n00bs who stay... n00bs pay the money.. Yes regulars pay too, but as rico pointed out, most of the money comes from n00bs...

Yes, you could implement a scoring system into the gun, then only use it when you wanted to.. But again, it comes back to keeping it simple for field operators... I can only reiterate again, most field operators don't want stuff like that, so how is it viable FOR A BUSINESS to develop something that a large portion of it's customers don't want? I'm waiting for someone to say "well maybe you'd get more customers if you had these features" and maybe that's true... But if that were the case, you'd expect to get inquiries from people about the gear asking about that, but as far as I know, we don't, or very rarely...

And last but not least, shut up Rommel, I'm sick of your snide remarks, if you don't like me, fine, just try and display some maturity...

[Builty]

I can tell you that the first time I played outdoor skirmish I was very disappointed to learn there was no scoring, as were 5 others with me, but we are (were?) regular indoor players so maybe we don't represent your normal clients.

Priest, are you going to answer my questions from a few posts ago, or ignore it and hope I go away?

[Rommel]

I agree that most REVENUE comes from n00bs. But have you taken into account the customer acquisition rate? It may look like the battlefield is making alot of money from n00bs but if it costs $10 to acquire the new players, and they paid $25 to play, then you only have $15 to cover gst and other expenses. Therefore you may not even make a profit on new players, depending on customer acquisition costs.

Here are some scenarios,

-------------------------

New player who doesn't want to play again to to money problems or doesn't like the field:
Assumptions - $10 customer acquisition, $10 op expenses per player, $25 REVENUE (price player paid per session), 3 month (2 sessions) period.

1st session - $5 profit
2nd session - $15 profit
Total for that one player - $20 (3mth period)

Once that player decides not to come back again, you have to look for more, and there wouldn't be an endless supply out there.

-------------------------

Regular player who plays once a fortnight:
Assumptions - $10 customer acquisition, $10 op expenses per player, $25 REVENUE (price player paid per session), 3 month (7 sessions) period.

1st session - $5 profit
2nd session - $15 profit
3rd session - $15 profit
4th session - $15 profit
5th session - $15 profit
6th session - $15 profit
Total for that one player - $80 (3mth period)

Regular players attract new players to the sport and help promote it, so the customer acquisition cost would decrease exponentialy with the amount of regular players.

-------------------------

Has anybody got any stats to prove my theory?

I haven't run a field before so I can't say that I am an expert. But I do know how a field runs. It isn't rocket
science.

And Fatty, define maturity for me? If none of my posts display maturity in your eyes then have a look in the mirror.

[Tunde]

Fatty, those things that Colin mentioned earlier were exactly what I have been saying all along. It is ture the the "noobs" are a huge chunk of business and I would like to keep the game simple for them but it would be great to have some feature to add for the regulars to keep everything new and exciting. We may be missing out on another huge chunk of business by not being able to offer regulars those features. There ae little things that could be added and hopefully will be soon that I can assure you every operator would like. If an operator says they would rather turn a key instead of being able to point and click to reset a gun they are a fool. I do have all faith that BFS will prevail and shall not sit complacently ignoring the voice of the people. They are listening and have vision for the future. I think if more operators knew the possibilities of a digital system you would hear more asking for it.

I'm sure my point of view is no surprise to Rico, since the first thing I asked him when we met was "when is BFS going to go digital":cool:

[Pooh Bear]

Quote from Fatty. Member of staff at BFS and LS in SEQ.

“Yes Rommel, I am saying that little n00bs are more important than regulars...

For as long as I remember on these forums and others, there has been talk of a league starting. To this date, it still has not happened. Who would play in such a league? Not n00bs. It is the regular players that would contest such an event. And the n00bs would have something to aim for. I personally would love to see such a competition come about. Reading into a number of posts that exist on these forums (and others) I know I am not alone.

The most elite thing that currently exists in SEQ is the clan wars. In Brisbane they are far and few between. On the Gold Coast, they are now happening once a month. Finally a direction being taken on the GC to REWARD LOYALTY.

I agree that the field owners still need to make money. It’s the reason they do this. However, why not take it a step further, and reward the loyalty shown by long-term players. Get a league started. Start something for the regulars. My apologies to you Fatty. I don’t know you personally. But you are a member of staff at the largest commercial body of this arena. And if this type of comment is a true indication of what BFS or Laser Skirmish in Brisbane think, then I feel sorry for your loyal PAYING customers.

As you know, HAW now calls the Gold Coast its home ground. The GC has a great balance of n00by games, and very good advanced games for the regulars. It is for this reason that we have moved here. As for Rommel, he (as I understand it) is one of the longest players in SEQ. Like him or not, he has certainly showed your company some LOYALTY. And this is how he is repaid. Look at what he has done for the sport. All of you are happy to post on these forums. Who is responsible for these forums? Rommel.

“Yes Rommel, I am saying that little n00bs are more important than regulars...

I really do hope that this is not what BFS and LS Brisbane really thinks. I really do…

[Tunde]

I think I have to agree with Rommel about how important it is to retain your regulars. Yes in a short sighted view, right now the noobs are bringing in the most amount of money but in the long runn I don't see how the sport will stay afloat if the regulars stop playing. It shouldn't be seen as two seperate things. We need to have both noobs and regulars and continue to increase the numbers of both to succeed.

[Fatty]

Firstly, the only field operator here agreed with me, Tunde said n00bs are the largest chunk of business... That's where your money comes from mainly, and more money means you can afford more new toys, such as the things you are all talking about developing... And I agree with his most recent post, in some respects... You need to build up more regulars, because long term it's good for business

Secondly, you only took that one statement... n00bs are more important... I didn't say regulars weren't important... n00bs are just where we make more money and they're easier to please.. I'd like to see more stuff done for regulars too, but the business needs to keep running so there is something to regularly turn up to. Do the simple things first, keep n00bs happy, they spend money... There is R&D being done on more comlex things (well, there better be, Priest better not have his feet up over there :p) some of them things people have mentioned. I have an
email in front of me about R&D priorities... It's happening, it just takes time...

Rommel said himself he didn't have experience running a field, so he doesn't know... I haven't run one myself, but I work at one, and I worked at laserforce, same sort of thing... At laserforce, they make the most money out of birthday parties, the weekend is busy as hell, they make the money to pay the bills... Then during the week, they try and keep regulars happy... There is a league, it's cheaper to play, etc, but it has it's own set of problems... Like everything, regulars want something different to keep the interested, they expect more because they've been playing for so long, which is fair enough, so they try and come up with new things... But the certainly don't make money off the regulars, the money they make pays the staff who work and not a lot past that... I'm all for rewarding loyalty, but some regulars think they deserve everything for nothing too... I think something should be done in brisbane about regulars and more high level stuff, but I guess I have been complacent, it doesn't cost me to play, and I dont get much chance to play anyway, my bad... BUt don't take me out of context... I'm not saying regulars aren't important, nor that they aren't a source of income, just that there is more to it...

I'm first in line to say things could be run a lot better around here... You think it's bad playing here, try working for them :p

[Builty]

Originally posted by Fatty
. I have an email in front of me about R&D priorities... It's happening, it just takes time...


Considering that BaalZ and I developed an entire system from scratch with data transmission in about 100 hours (a month or so of spare time outside of our normal 40+ hour day jobs) then on that basis we should expect your system release in about 2 weeks time? ;)

My gut feeling is BFS had zero intention of developing an advanced system until the started to feel threatened, then they make some bold statements to ease peoples minds, then turn around a say shit we better actually start developing something now.

[Tunde]

I think the thing that really fueled this debate was not the fact that BFS does not yet use a digital system but the way the isssue was confronted. I still think the stance that Plan took when trying to down play the importance of a data transfer system was ridiculous. I have heard it from other people within the BFS organization also. It sounds as if BFS is down playing digital because they don't have it yet. I understand why they would do that. They don't want their competitors to look too good, while they are trying to create a better data transfer system. I can't blame them for trying, but they need to come up with a better arguement.

[Tunde]

Originally posted by Builty
My gut feeling is BFS had zero intention of developing an advanced system until the started to feel threatened, then they make some bold statements to ease peoples minds, then turn around a say shit we better actually start developing something now.

I don't know about that. The important thingis that they can't ignore the voice of the people. Competitive business is a democracy and the will of the people will not be denied.

[Colin]

I really do think the sport does need to evolve, and that takes a number of fronts...

Firstly, the hardware needs to take a step forward and have support for both a simple mode and a complex mode. A lot of my ideas don't even need a digital mode, but rather can just use different signalling frequencies.

The biggest problem with the hardware (which I probably didn't mention) is the no-self hits system. It actually happens a bit where you and another guy just shoot at each other, no one dies until someone runs out of ammo or someone lets go of the trigger. So you become locked-out from hitting each other. Obviously a digital system could fix this and this kind of scenario would result in both players being hit and not being 'invulernable' to each other.

Secondly, the field owner have to take some responsibility and cater for the needs of all their different players. I know where the money is, and I know how much a pain a regular player is, but it needs to happen. Here in WA we are quite lucky as the field owners do take the initiative and listen to their players and run clans, advanced sessions etc...

And most importantly, the regular players have to be ambassadors for the sport. We have to help and encourage the newer players to get the best experience from it as possible and encourage them to return. I was turned off from Zone 3 as the elite players would never talk to the newer players and would only just totally blast you away and would never help you improve. I try and take an active stance at my field and discuss tactics and improvements with the newer players. Its no fun just beating newer players. We need to develop a large number of good players so that everyone can have a challenge against one another. We have to be nice to the newer players.

A number of times, newer players have sort of complained about me being too good and beating them too easily. I must admit sometimes I find it hard to scale back my intensity. But in this situation I discuss the strategy I used and discuss with them how they can beat it. I find it so much enjoyable teaching other players how to improve themselves and getting feedback from other players how to improve myself...
I also make a conscious effort to be friendly at all times, not smacktalk too much and call out things like 'good shot' when someone gets a good kill shot on me... Newer players love being the one who killed the 'experienced' players, and I let them know that they did well. I also try and congratulate the other team when they have a win...
Its little things like this that encourages a good atmosphere and get people coming back...

[Tunde]

I agree whole heartedly. The sport is still relatively young and like soldiers on the war front we have to keep pushing on leading it victory.

[Rommel]

Quote from Pooh

As you know, HAW now calls the Gold Coast its home ground. The GC has a great balance of n00by games, and very good advanced games for the regulars. It is for this reason that we have moved here. As for Rommel, he (as I understand it) is one of the longest players in SEQ. Like him or not, he has certainly showed your company some LOYALTY. And this is how he is repaid. Look at what he has done for the sport. All of you are happy to post on these forums. Who is responsible for these forums? Rommel.

I WAS the Brisbane fields most loyal player. Not anymore, because they don't care about regular players. The majority of the regular players at Brisbane are refs/staff, because they can play for free. I have put up with alot at that field, why should staff be rude to me when I was their most loyal player.

If you don't know already Fatty, I now play at Helensvale every fortnight, that means I travel an extra 30mins to give my money to somebody else. They look after their regular players!

Why hasn't Plan stated his opinion on here? :rolleyes:

[Tunde]

I would guess Plan is a very busy man. He jumped in for a bit at the beggining but look what trouble he caused. :D

[Tunde]

Now that I think about it, as an operator I would love to have scoring and stats on players. Just for my personal use. If somebody is just absolutly raping people in the beggining sessions I would promote them to the more advanced ones. Gotta keep it fun and interesting for everyone. I wouldn't give scores out to players though.

[Big Slug]

Originally posted by Builty
Considering that BaalZ and I developed an entire system from scratch with data transmission in about 100 hours (a month or so of spare time outside of our normal 40+ hour day jobs) then on that basis we should expect your system release in about 2 weeks time? ;)

My gut feeling is BFS had zero intention of developing an advanced system until the started to feel threatened, then they make some bold statements to ease peoples minds, then turn around a say shit we better actually start developing something now.

Who is this?

Are you an operator?

[Big Slug]

Originally posted by Rommel
Quote from Pooh


I WAS the Brisbane fields most loyal player. Not anymore, because they don't care about regular players. The majority of the regular players at Brisbane are refs/staff, because they can play for free. I have put up with alot at that field, why should staff be rude to me when I was their most loyal player.

If you don't know already Fatty, I now play at Helensvale every fortnight, that means I travel an extra 30mins to give my money to somebody else. They look after their regular players!

Why hasn't Plan stated his opinion on here? :rolleyes:

Rommel,

You may have been one of the most loyal players but you were also the biggest pain in the arse! You were constantly complaining about playing with noobies (who were trying to become regulars) and being rude to them! You complained about the missions, the weapons, everything!! Everytime you lost it was because you were playing in a weaker team or because your scope was in line!! There was always an excuse! Instead of using your experience to nuture new players you insulted them!
I dare say that the Brisbane field is doing better now that you have left!!
HAW were a diferent kettle of fish! They made new players feel welcome and were not rude to staff!!

I agree that more needs to be done for regular players, but it is very hard to justify the time and effort for the financial gain!
All I can say is when your local field launches a league - support it!! I dont know why the Qld based field don't organise a league that includes clans from both fields. This way you could rotate fields and play against more clans and the operators can split costs/profits/time/effort!

Well I have done enough typing!!


Tunde you guys are new operators and are unsure on how to best operate your business, but istead of worrying about what the BFS stytem cant do , concerntrate on what it can!! It can make you a lot of money! All new players want to do is shoot!! Get them hooked and then introduce more complex missions!!

Builty, what is your motivation in being so negative about BFS?

You guys are failing to see the big picture. BFS is moving forward at a sensible pace!! I no longer work for BFS but I commend them for the way they are moving forward. They are getting the basics right and that should give owners/operators confidence but instead we have them complaining!!!

[Colin]

Originally posted by Big Slug
Who is this?

Are you an operator?


Builty has done an awesome job in building something up and also releasing all information so that others can reproduce or build their own version of the equipment...

Builty and BaalZ are the kind of people who will be taking the sport to the next level... Hell, they've
already released circuits and software so that anyone can program the sound chips easily...

I wouldn't be suprised seeing these guys operating a company or field some time in the future...

[Big Slug]

So he doesn't own or operate a commercial field??

Why does he have such strong feelings towards BFS??

[Tunde]

I wasn't really trying to complain, only looking to the future. I was only bringing up an issue for debate. I have said throughout i love bfs gear and have faith in the company but i won't sit silently when I can express my ideas of what could be added for the future.

[plan]

Sorry guys, I have been really busy, this has been the high season for international sales due to the northern hemisphere summer. Don't expect to see me here often. I have a lot of calls on my time.

Rommel, personally I don't remember being rude to you. However you sure as hell been very rude to me on many occasions. I of course wish you well and your always welcome to play whenever you wish.

Tunde, we are a vigourous R&D program. However much of what we are doing is trade secrets. I do not discuss in detail on public forums what we are working on. We do have competition you know. But watch out for new features, guns etc as we progress. We have actually done a lot new things over the last 6 months so we have not been sitting on our our backside as suggested by some posters.

I do agree with Big Slug that there are some strong anti-bfs comments on some of these forums. Guys, we are not perfect, but I can tell you our team is very dedicated to developing lasertag both for the players and the field owners. Personally I think of virtually nothing else (I have worked on this stuff for 15 years of which 13 I was not paid a penny, so please don't doubt my committment). All members of our team share the same passion. Why do you have this angst against us, what have we done to you?

What I can tell you is a lot of battlefields around the world are having great success with our equipment and there are many happy players - especially happy birthday boys all over the planet that have benefited from what we have done. To me, that is what is important. The business we are in is the entertainment industry focused on catering for events like birthday parties, sports team break-ups and corporate entertainment.

Incidently I'm arranging a Gold Coast Versus Brisbane war on a home/away basis. The Brisbane leg could be night urban, something I'm putting a lot of attention on, because I know many regular players want to do that again.

I'm also in discussion about South Brisbane Versus North Brisbane when the Mango Hill battlefield launches in July.

[Dangerous]

Wow, where do I start?

So much has been posted here in such a short time, I don't know what to say.

I considered lambasting those that were picking on others, then realised I would just be adding to the commotion.

I considered revealing some "confidential" information that has been entrusted in me by some players, but realised the kudos received from that just wouldn't be worth losing their trust, and most likely friendship.

So, I have decided to post the following...

Over here at Lasercombat (Baldivis, WA) we run a league. We have been since day one. That's since August 2003. It has become so popular that we now have a Monday and a Thursday league, both separate.

We award medallions to each player in the winning Clan.

We have clan games every Monday and Thursday nights, and it works very well.

On top of that, of course we have the Corporate sessions, birthday parties, Sunday sessions, and the Elite Sessions that Colin has already mentioned.

I do not receive anything from Lasercombat other than referee pay on Thursdays and the special Elite sessions run once a month.

We value every player equally. Without new players, the sport is doomed.

Consider it for a moment: people get bored, move jobs, get married, leave home, get drinking partners, go clubbing etc etc. These are only a few of the possible reasons why people stop coming along regularly, and if you don't have new guys to step up and take over, then where are you?

Ok, so it sounds like I am saying that new players are the most important. That's not quite true. As most sports people can attest to, a player can only ever get to be as good as his master. So we need regulars to teach the new players the finer points. I know I teach and learn every time I play, sometimes automatically, sometimes consciously.

Now the question of digital. I have reffed a number of games where people ask immediately after they touch their first spitfire "How do I know who I have shot", "How do I score", "Who is the best player" etc.

These are valid questions that a digital system could assist in answering. On the other hand, once they are out there running around shooting, being shot, and generally having the time of their lives, they don't ask again.

So, great, problem solved. Don't worry about them, they come back and we don't have digital.

Unfortunately that will only work for so long. Consider my earlier statement, which is the same as others here have already mentioned: New players are only new for a while, then they become regulars.

I do not think that I would be taking too much liberty by assuming 90% of the readers of this post fit into the "Regulars" category, and I am certain that we were all new players once upon a time, even ex military types like me.

So assuming we were once new, but are now regular, those new players joining today that enjoy themselves as much as the rest of us, will be tomorrow's regular players. And they, like us will have the same questions... Why can't we score easier? Why can't the system tell me how many people I have shot? etc etc

Its a natural progression. We are working magic now with invisible light that reaches out and touches people, so why can't the system know who touched whom? The answer of "Sorry, it can't" is only going to hold people off for so long.

The last thing I will say, is no, I am not a field operator, yet I do on occasions run the whole field, from accepting monies through to rekeying players. I do think of myself as a regular, possibly even a veteran. I know my wife considers me obsessed. So, accordingly, I do think my opinion has a certain amount of weight, but fully expect it to be taken for what it is: MY opinion.

Lets value the opinion of others such that the sport can flourish.

[Builty]

Big Slug, I'm not an operator and don't own on commercial equipment of any brand. I'm a hobbyist who enjoys making things, who also happens to be a professional software engineer, so putting the two together along with a long time friend who is a scientist means we have done a lot of development recently, most of which we have released publicly and openly.

Reading back on my comments I do realise now that I do sound very negative to BFS; that I regret, in reality of have great deal of respect for BFS and admire the great work they have done. I probably got caught up in the emotion of the argument, and some of the comments from BFS staff made me angrier than they probably should have.

Currently I have no financial interests in tag at all, so I don't really have an agenda to push, but the thought of becoming commercial in some way has crossed my mind.
I'll keep the emotion in check, lets continue with the healthy debate.

[Rommel]

Originally posted by plan
Rommel, personally I don't remember being rude to you. However you sure as hell been very rude to me on many occasions. I of course wish you well and your always welcome to play whenever you wish.

When was I ever rude to you or Rico?

I admit I have had arguments with Priest, Lateo, and Fatty. What regular players haven't. These arguments have always been over me accusing people of cheating. I like this sport, and I hate cheaters because they ruin it. So that is why when I see somebody cheating I report it

Do you forget the time when Priest knocked me over on the field, yelled at me face to face. He thought that I cheated but I did what Rico (the ref) told me to do, and that was to walk away from the firefight and respawn (with somebody elses gun who left the game due to injury). I didn't retaliate.

Has BFS launched a personal attack against me?

[Tunde]

Originally posted by plan
Tunde, we are a vigourous R&D program. However much of what we are doing is trade secrets. I do not discuss in detail on public forums what we are working on. We do have competition you know. But watch out for new features, guns etc as we progress. We have actually done a lot new things over the last 6 months so we have not been sitting on our our backside as suggested by some posters.

What I can tell you is a lot of battlefields around the world are having great success with our equipment and there are many happy players - especially happy birthday boys all over the planet that have benefited from what we have done. To me, that is what is important. The business we are in is the entertainment industry focused on catering for events like birthday parties, sports team break-ups and corporate entertainment.

Good to hear from you Plan. I'm sure you are very busy. You know this whole thing started because I made some comment about what I hoped you guys would begin to implement. I understand you have to keep a level of secrecy. Part of our corporate training deals with maneuver warfare and the element of surprise plays a huge part. I would have left the subject alone had you not tried to down play the possibilities of digital, such as the near miss sound. I was really just trying to bring up some cool things that i would like and you guys might think about doing. As I have said throughout I love what you guys have so far, but as an operator I felt you would like to hear my opinion on what might be looked into for the future.

[Big Slug]

Originally posted by Rommel
When was I ever rude to you or Rico?

I admit I have had arguments with Priest, Lateo, and Fatty. What regular players haven't. These arguments have always been over me accusing people of cheating. I like this sport, and I hate cheaters because they ruin it. So that is why when I see somebody cheating I report it

Do you forget the time when Priest knocked me over on the field, yelled at me face to face. He thought that I cheated but I did what Rico (the ref) told me to do, and that was to walk away from the firefight and respawn (with somebody elses gun who left the game due to injury). I didn't retaliate.

Has BFS launched a personal attack against me?

Rommel you were rude to me and my staff on so many ocassions.

I didn't make a big deal out of it because I thought you would grow out of it.

I lost count of the times you were rude to other players, new and regular, I lost count of the complaints made against you from other players, new and regular.

This is not an attack from BFS, as I no longer work for BFS, and remember you are the one that was attacking the way BFS run their business, which by the way you are very happy to piggy back off??

I admire your dedication to laser skirmish and your committment as a player, but you are only in it for one person!!


Tunde,

Good comments mate, I now understand where you are coming from.
Take care.

[Rommel]

LOL you amuse me Rico :D

[Tunde]

http://www.lazercombat.com/

I just went to this website and saw the spitfire they are using. The spitfire SD what the heck. Those look too cool. Do you think BFS custom made those that way or did lazer combat make their own additions?

[Fatty]

They did those
mods themselves, but BFS can do a spitfire like that (not sure about the stock, but they can do the front, a customer just bought two) adding a stock shouldn't be too difficult...

[Tunde]

The front looks hella sick. Would it be difficult to upgrade our spitfires?

[plan]

Can do a stock too, don't have a price yet

[piglet]

GROUP HUG!!!!!!!


Piglet has vomited!

[Fatty]

I don't think it'd be a difficult upgrade, I didn't look too closely at the front, but it looked like it just slid over the normal spitfire barrel, I could be wrong tho... Attaching a stock should be fairly easy tho...

[Rommel]

Originally posted by piglet
GROUP HUG!!!!!!!


Piglet has vomited!

Rommel has agreed!